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TikiWiki a bit of everything, instead the best of everything?

posts: 40

Hello g's & g's!

For over one year, I had the idea to do everything on TikiWiki.
It took a long time due to install problems and sometimes in country parts without porper internet.

But now just what experimenting inside TikiWiki. Don't know all the features yet, placed some articles, etc.
Probably it's possible to get a Wikimedia system running inside Tiki, maybe with even some more sophistication, than MediaWiki.
User groups, assign rights, having BLogs-, forums-, interchange and so on.

But now I installed MediaWiki and 'just'(after more than a year), dropped the idea of wanting to have it all inside TikiWiki.
Everyone is installing MediaWiki, next to another PHP-program (mostly much better graphics, presentation and so on, than Tiki).
So was I that stupid, or are they?

TikiWiki might be the best of integrating all parts(?)
But not the best with the best features of the individual parts?
Well; I like the best:

  • The best Blog and or article submit system;
  • The best Forum;
  • The best WikiPedia system;
  • The best Clubs/Groups;
  • Nicer graphics/frontportal;

and so on.

Like having *individual* Blog's with "rich editor text", automatically copied over to a *general* forum in its original Rich editor text format.
Additions on that forumthread, not in the Blog. Having articles exchanged 'with one button' between WikiMedia, etcetera.
Is there a full TikiWiki integrator with:

  • MediaWiki;
  • Something like Yahoo Groups;
  • the best forum software;

and so on?


Thanks, Mark

=
P.S.: A little bug: got the message wait 2 minutes before posting; go back. Then my edit was gone instead it was memorized.

posts: 1630 Canada

Hi Mark,

We all want the best of everything.

That is the debate about loose or not-so-loose integration of best-of-breed applications vs all-in-one CMS applications.

The challenge is installing 4 applications and having some "glueware" to get them to work nicely together. You'll have 4 user bases and 4 sets of groups and permissions. You'll need to upgrade 4 applications and make sure the "glueware" still works. You'll have 4 different search engines. You'll need to customize the look & feel/navigation/user interface more than once.

Tiki has an excellent wiki and excellent group/permission system. Articles, blogs & forums are very good. I can't think of some software which is significantly better than Tiki for these features. If you want to improve with "Nicer graphics/frontportal", you just need to make a nicer theme. Please see http://themes.tikiwiki.org

If you need something that Tiki is not very good at (ex.: webmail), then it makes sense to have a separate application. Please read this page:
http://doc.tikiwiki.org/features

Also, please remember that Tiki is improving all the time. So you can identify something which should be better, make it better or find someone to make it better.

In short, IMHO, it's less work to make a nice theme and to improve a few things in Tiki than to manage 4 applications.

Best regards,

M ;-)


posts: 40

Marc, thanks for the clear explanation & I'll study.

Did some other little homework; heavy comprehended here:
Yahoo Group WikiResearch "Research Wiki" Development Group

It's about what Wiki (/or combination) will do the job. Some things are basic, others not that important; especially not in the beginning.
Tiki-Features about "wiki" states that they're excellent in all perspectives. So why would one ten need MediaWiki, if TikiWiki can do the same job(?) and more? If so; I only need to get more acquainted with more aspects of TikiWiki! Anyway, the MediaWiki was running easily and haven't got something like that ready yet in TikiWiki. Other Wiki's seem even more easier. Probably it takes more time to learn how to implement the same features?

Besides of that: Is there a general place for TikiWiki applications? OR: Even a general place for ALL applications and combinations?
I *accidently* found a combination between XOOPS and DokuWiki (see my homework above), and also this text:
Wikiresearch#MediaWiki
"... The modular WikiTeX system adds the capability to incorporate rendered TeX objects inside MediaWiki output.
GetWiki, which is used by Recyclopedia, is a fork of MediaWiki and adds XML import functionality ..."

Still advising Tiki developers to have a look at:

  • the Dutch http://www.clubs.nl ('perfect' club system, they only didn't compile =slow)
  • Rich Text Editor;
  • Yahoo Groups (= poor clubs.nl copy) integration, or something like that.


P.S.: This time I preventive copied my contribution first, otherwise it would have been lost: I had to login again and Tiki doesn't seem to memorize.


posts: 40

Hi again,

Some new developments, questions & suggestions:

(Keep having all kinds of most minor errors, like you-have-to-enable-cookies on loggin in. But just go back a page or log in 2 times, and it works. Webmail errors; lot of error mesages and then the mail shows up. Not able to send mail (however; passwords and notifcations are send by the program). Etcetera.
But that all is a bit for another subject, I've placed here before. Then I was bussy with a failing fruit-project in Oaxaca -Mexico and a similar failing social revolution + some other things. So now back to the issue!)

Some NEW DRUPAL DEVELOPMENTS:

Results integrated group system..! +Blog installed -"Drupal" http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WikiResearch/message/3

Integrated Drupal System / THE Integrated Solution http://cxs2.info/w/index.php?title=Blog_Mail-List_Forum_Wiki#THE_Integrated_Solution

Earlier I found another integration, like this one:
Integrate Wiki's, &PHP's like XOOPS +DokuWiki? http://www.xoops.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3200

1) So what to think of these systems; especially that integrated Drupal? Don't forget to watch the video...

2) And... What are the pro's and con's compared to Tiki-Wiki?

3) Then: Is it possible to build an interface between that new integrated Drupal system, Tiki-Wiki and MediaWiki?
Just integrate the best of the best, or something?

Or am I talking technical non-sence now? Are those systems too different to integrate and why?

4) Some bit other question: How is the "major new features" TikiWiki 10 series going?
Can some aspects be integrated in that, or...? And when is the first public release expected?

......Best regards, Mark

posts: 4656 Japan

> Hi again,
>
> Some new developments, questions & suggestions:
>
> ....
> 1) So what to think of these systems; especially that integrated Drupal? Don't forget to watch the video...

A couple of things are shown in the video that Tiki doesn't do, or doesn't do as smoothly. One is subgroups. My impression is that Tiki's group concept was done primarily for page/object permissions, not for membership organization itself. It'd take some thinking to see whether the absence of this feature would be a showstopper for an organization, or whether things could be managed using Tiki's group system, though not as smoothly. I've got Drupal installed, but haven't spent enough time with it yet to see how groups work; my impression is that the default setup is quite basic. The system shown in the video is CiviCRM, which works in conjunction with Drupal (or Joomla), according to its web page. This is explicitly designed for managing social groups, and so can be expected to have advanced features in that area.

The second thing is the message setup. Tiki covers that territory roughly speaking, but the implementation details are different. You'd have to try both to see what works best, also looking at other system pluses and minuses.

> 2) And... What are the pro's and con's compared to Tiki-Wiki?

Naturally the final answer depends on what exactly you want to do at your site and what specific tools are needed and available to meet that need. I think Tiki's having a wiki at the core gives it an advantage for collaborative sites, over software that maybe started out as a CMS and adds a wiki after the fact, unless of course things are done very well to give a seamless integration. From what I saw in the video, Tiki's wiki itself is far more powerful and flexible.

> 3) Then: Is it possible to build an interface between that new integrated Drupal system, Tiki-Wiki and MediaWiki?
> Just integrate the best of the best, or something?

I don't think integrating makes much sense. First, it would cause a lot of redundancy to integrate Mediawiki and Tiki, both being centered on wikis. Tiki and Drupal also cover a lot of the same area already, so the thing to do is choose between them rather than try to integrate them. If you are already using Tiki, or want to, what Drupal feature would you want to integrate? (And vice versa?) It'd be more practical to add specific missing features. This of course requires coding skills, but certainly would be a lot less effort than trying to combine two CMSs.

> Or am I talking technical non-sence now? Are those systems too different to integrate and why?

Yes, it'd be impractical to try to integrate them. Each has its own ways of handling users, content, and so on, so there's really no way — and no advantage — to combine them. It'd make more sense to identify desired features and code those from scratch for your current system. Or if the other system has many wanted features, then just switch to it.

CiviCRM uses Drupal or Joomla site registrations to make new records, and I guess functions in parallel with shared user data. I don't know if this can easily be done with Tiki or not. I'm also not sure what else is shared between the two systems, such as searches, visual styles, etc. This you'd have to investigate.

> 4) Some bit other question: How is the "major new features" TikiWiki 10 series going?
> Can some aspects be integrated in that, or...? And when is the first public release expected?

I guess the best thing to do is keep track of the Release notes page, CVS changelog, etc. Workspaces probably are a significant addition in the area you are talking about. On the other side, there's a lot of streamlining going on.

-- Gary

posts: 40

Héhé: http://civicrm.org/ -thanks for the hint, I hadn't seen that yet..!

And next to integrating; what about "bridging" instead? Or partly integrating and partly bridging?
To work with the same password in different systems.. Or to be able to import/export/edit MediaWiki articles within a TikiWiki or CiviCRM group... Etc.
(I even can't think about all the possibilities).

Practically: I now have Mediawiki with many articles that temporary works for the job.
With TikiWiki I'm still having lots of errors after 2 years. Plus don't know how to get some special nices yet.
Then I use Yahoo Groups/maillist, but... Not www listed, no forum, no wiki (not edible after placing a message), etc...
Blogs; didn't find the proper one yet. TikiWiki has layout problems with copying articles.

Also just started to practice with maybe the 'most advanced' group system on the net: http://takingitglobal.org
(one has to open a project and then connect wiki with forum, Blog, group, maillist; something like that)




posts: 4656 Japan

> Héhé: http://civicrm.org/ -thanks for the hint, I hadn't seen that yet..!

I noticed the "powered by" line in the screenshot video.

> And next to integrating; what about "bridging" instead?

By sharing user login/data, as I guess CiviCRM does with Drupal or Joomla; that could work, if the authentication sharing is worked out.

> Or partly integrating and partly bridging?
> To work with the same password in different systems.. Or to be able to import/export/edit MediaWiki articles within a TikiWiki or CiviCRM group... Etc.

Editing is generally specific to the software. Even wiki syntax varies quite a bit.

> (I even can't think about all the possibilities).

If even thinking about all the possibilities is hard, imagine how much harder to do the grunt work of writing the necessary code for these changes/additions. wink

> Practically: I now have Mediawiki with many articles that temporary works for the job.
> With TikiWiki I'm still having lots of errors after 2 years. Plus don't know how to get some special nices yet.

I wonder why you're getting errors. Most users aren't, AFAIK. I'm running several Tiki installations with no particular problem with errors. Some people seem to have trouble at some particular host or due to installation/setup problems, it seems.

> Then I use Yahoo Groups/maillist, but... Not www listed, no forum, no wiki (not edible after placing a message), etc...
> Blogs; didn't find the proper one yet. TikiWiki has layout problems with copying articles.

What do you mean? Layout problems with articles produced internally, or externally?

> Also just started to practice with maybe the 'most advanced' group system on the net: http://takingitglobal.org
> (one has to open a project and then connect wiki with forum, Blog, group, maillist; something like that)

There are many cool projects around, for sure.

-- Gary

posts: 40

Thanks Gary,

Started forumthread with the same subject on the CiviCRM-maillist:
http://www.nabble.com/How-do-others%3A-TikiWiki%2C-TakingitGlobal%2C-MediaWiki-tf2944160s15986.html

Layout problems when trying to copy an article to TikiWiki; one just has to do a lot of work to get the pictures right, etc.
With Rich-Text-Editor, like some Blogs and Yahoo Groups have, it's just with one vingertip. But I mentioned that already in anothet topic.
Then I get error messages when logging in with https, but just going back one screen, normally helps.
Keep having webmail error messages on top of the screen, but webmail just shows up.
Can't send email from within TikiWiki with BlueHost (think I tried all logical poissibilities and combinations with fields quite often).
Nop; but strange enough confirmation emails from within TikiWiki are sedn out without problems.
The format of the emails is strange; When I receive a 'clickable' link to enter another websiet for a first time (password invitation); the link is not clickable. But worse was that it has changed the code. Like "?", "%", "&", ".", " ", they all have a code and that was replaced. Took me some time for a complex .asp forum password to find out. Just to name a few.
Then yes; one can put a lot of info on one TikiWiki screen. But -for example- I eevry time have to look wher is my webmail option! And it is not the first time I'm looking for where it is positioned. Can the layout; the letters, made bigger easily?
...

But about the projects; I think not that much more *in this field* is going on. I researched it quite a bit:
http://cxs2.info/w/index.php?title=Blog_Mail-List_Forum_Wiki
(my serverbox at BlueHost seems to be partly down at moment of writing)

posts: 4656 Japan

> Started forumthread with the same subject on the CiviCRM-maillist:
> http://www.nabble.com/How-do-others%3A-TikiWiki%2C-TakingitGlobal%2C-MediaWiki-tf2944160s15986.html

Unfortunately no one has responded there yet. I suspect people there who are developers are probably focused on the current integration options and don't see a need to consider others.

> Layout problems when trying to copy an article to TikiWiki; one just has to do a lot of work to get the pictures right, etc.
> With Rich-Text-Editor, like some Blogs and Yahoo Groups have, it's just with one vingertip. But I mentioned that already in anothet topic.

mose has been working on adding WYSIWYG editing for Tiki 1.10, which will help people who don't want to use Tiki's normal wiki syntax.

> Then I get error messages when logging in with https....
> .... Just to name a few.

Sorry, but I don't have any ideas about these errors.

> Then yes; one can put a lot of info on one TikiWiki screen. But -for example- I eevry time have to look wher is my webmail option! And it is not the first time I'm looking for where it is positioned. Can the layout; the letters, made bigger easily?
> ...

Sure, you can add links how you like and change the font sizes. Links can be added by making modules, which could have an eye-catching graphic link for webmail or whatever, or some text treatment that stands out. You can edit the CSS file of the theme your using to increase font sizes and so on. Of course how "easily" depends on the user's experience and so on, but it should be considerably easier than working with conventional HTML anyway.

> But about the projects; I think not that much more *in this field* is going on. I researched it quite a bit:
> http://cxs2.info/w/index.php?title=Blog_Mail-List_Forum_Wiki
> (my serverbox at BlueHost seems to be partly down at moment of writing)

I also like to be aware of other things going on.

-- Gary

posts: 40

Installed the Drupal 5.x_dev (almost final release). Then tried to add civiCRM. Have to wait for Bluehost to tell me where the path for the MySQL scripts is, as the config file asks for.

Then I see Drupal doesn't have "WYSIWYG editing" standard.
But looking on that word you provided me + Drupal, returns:
http://tinymce.moxiecode.com/

Seems to be universal; is that what Mose is integrating into TikiWiki too, or a bit 're-inventing the wheel'?
Anyway; I will install that as module to my Drupal.

Another thing is -yes it is in Dutch!- ...
http://web-log.nl
Just like the old Dutch clubs (bought and castrated by Yahoo), this is a Dutch Blog with a few additional features.
For example: I just noted when I wanted to copy a page with righ-mouse click; there was another option "Quickpost".
It was build into my PC by that site, so I can post very quick on my Blog.

Patience for TikiWiki has reached my psychological barriers, that lay much higher than those of most other people.
Actually I've lost this project + people who were involved two years ago + some side-effects on other projects from the energy soak.
I'm a bit traumatized about TikiWiki; forgive me I won't respond on succes stories anymore, as I've done before...

However; I'll install the new 10 version when it is ready (depends on internet connections; my whereabouts are insecure) and try to report and communicate about possible remaining bugs!

posts: 4656 Japan

> Installed the Drupal 5.x_dev (almost final release). Then tried to add civiCRM. Have to wait for Bluehost to tell me where the path for the MySQL scripts is, as the config file asks for.
>
> Then I see Drupal doesn't have "WYSIWYG editing" standard.
> But looking on that word you provided me + Drupal, returns:
> http://tinymce.moxiecode.com/
>
> Seems to be universal; is that what Mose is integrating into TikiWiki too, or a bit 're-inventing the wheel'?

Not actually universal. FCKeditor, coming to Tiki, seems to be used as much. Both have stronger and weaker points.

> ...
>
> Patience for TikiWiki has reached my psychological barriers, that lay much higher than those of most other people.
> Actually I've lost this project + people who were involved two years ago + some side-effects on other projects from the energy soak.
> I'm a bit traumatized about TikiWiki; forgive me I won't respond on succes stories anymore, as I've done before...

It's hard to know what makes Tiki so difficult in some cases and yet run more or less problem-free elsewhere. I suppose server, installation, or setup differences account for part of that, along with differences in the features that each site uses. I don't use the Tiki webmail, for example, so I don't experience any trauma due to that wink. I've accepted that Tiki's code is contributed by a lot of different people at different times and is not all herded along monolithically as might be the case for some projects. Consequently, some features aren't as robust as others (i.e., they may be broken), so I don't use them. THis reduces the de facto number of Tiki features, but it still compares well to other CMS/Groupware/wiki software. Each user has to decide whether the actual working tool set in Tiki meets his/her needs.

> However; I'll install the new 10 version when it is ready (depends on internet connections; my whereabouts are insecure) and try to report and communicate about possible remaining bugs!

OK.

-- Gary

posts: 40

Yep, most problematic is the webmail. Maybe some others don't use, and/or it get's wrong with BlueHost.
Then some minor log-in problems, especially when using SSL. It's not a site for fun, it needs to be protected a bit, so SSL login or no site at all.
Ofcourse using the BlueHost SSL certificate (extra problems...) instead of one on the name of my site itself.

http://3cyb.org is my new Drupal site in experimental stage.
I installed additional special modules "TinyMCE WYSIWYG editor" ('Rich Text Edito'; forgot the IMCE.module for files/pics with WYSIWYG);
Installed "Subsciptions" (so members & readers can install what they want to be notified about).

CiviCRM didn't work yet; installation is complex and I have no background in PHP/Apache/MySQL + not that much access on BlueHost yet.
Here my install & error pages:
http://cxs2.info/w/index.php?title=Drupal_Wiki_Group#http:.2F.2Fcivicrm.org
http://cxs2.info/w/index.php?title=Drupal_Wiki_Group#http://civicrm.org
(give both codes for "//"; sometimes it can be a problem)


A nice discussion for understanding what is going on in the field of present & future developments...
(Drupal versus Joomla... & how about TikiWiki in that picture..?)
http://buytaert.net/drupal-vs-joomla-popularity

Ofcourse there is so much more info. But at least my question seems to be answered that I do'n't have to install Joomla too with CiviCRM to find out about that program too.



posts: 3665 United States

>
> A nice discussion for understanding what is going on in the field of present & future developments...
> (Drupal versus Joomla... & how about TikiWiki in that picture..?)
> http://buytaert.net/drupal-vs-joomla-popularity


It isn't a very pretty picture. cry

Actually this doesn't surprise me too much. IMHO TW's biggest problem isn't functionality (it does nearly every/anything you could want) — it is simply that the default theme looks "amatuerish", there's no "wow" factor. I think this turns folks off of TW, even without realizing that TW will really do nearly every/anything you could want.


FWIW, I've brought up this topic previously.

Just my $0.02.

-Rick

posts: 40

The graphs and page itself, however, are handsome. What about this one:
Drupal, MediaWiki, TikiWiki TRENDGRAPH

Only TikiWiki 2006 -the only positive is that Silicon Valley has some strong support.

Yes, saw your other posting! I better discuss it here with you, so you might 'translate' it in the proper terms.

I think its more about how many available developers? Look at the Drupal project how many people work (600?) on it with daily new releases of some modules. TikiWiki is nice for people who already work with it and to extend it to..? But isn't Drupal now the program that can do 'everything' and is 'the higher end' for this subclass in popularity as well?

If TikiWiki doesn't have the same amount of developers, or another special nice in the market.. then..? Maybe not more working on trying to do the same as Drupal. Instead working on the niches. AND integrating with Drupal??! Creating a 'bridge'? Let Drupal do what it is best for. How to catch up with them? Isn't it a lost contest?

I did stockmarket before; when I see the TikiWiki graphs OVER THE YEARS AND DECLINING RECENTLY, I even would take a short position on it; go bearish! Unless TikiWiki has some new secret powerfull tool being released soon... I'm sorry to say this, but I even see a 'head-and-shoulders' in the graph; you know: Before the first shoulder it goes up, then a second time for the head, then down, then a little up for the last shoulder and then starting to go down again in some free fall.

And TikiWiki do special nices and integrate it with Drupal. Or intergrate TikiWiki with MediaWiki.

I have my site http://cxs2.info/w on mediawiki. Would like to integrate that with another program with groups & all possibilities.
Is that technically impossible? 'Just' drop TikiWiki as front and use Drupal + bridge for the TikiWiki niches + bridge for MediaWiki?

'Just' like the CiviCRM module integrates with Drupal...

A TikiWiki module for Drupal? -then TikiWiki needs to integrate MediaWiki pages as well..?
OR: 'Just' join the Drupal team and bring the best about TikiWiki into that system?

Some filosophy; the culture jump to a higher culture with more advantages and the matrix, cultural bariers that withhold(?)


And the graphs... They don't include the present developments. They don't include the CivCRM modules that are going to take over and integrate what is now Yahoo groups and so on. Some major & prof partners chose for Drupal; all of that and the follow up effects might not have been incorporated in the figures yet. In my opionion, Drupal might boom this year; gradually ofourse, as it isn't jo-jo popi Joomla.

posts: 3665 United States

> The graphs and page itself, however, are handsome. What about this one:
> Drupal, MediaWiki, TikiWiki TRENDGRAPH
>
> Only TikiWiki 2006 -the only positive is that Silicon Valley has some strong support.

I, for one, take any/all of those with a grain of salt. As the old saying goes:
There are three kinds of lies: Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Personally, I like Tiki's all-in-one approach. As an end user, there are few things that frustrate me more than going to a site, and have different interfaces for the different parts of the site. I've seen sites where the Blog uses wordpress, the forum uses phpBBS, and the wiki uses Mediawiki. As an admin, it would take a lot of work to make these three packages integrate seamlessly — that's what I like about Tiki.

Is it perfect? No. But... it is fairly easy to customize (heck, if I can do it, then anyone should be able to!) lol

-Rick

posts: 40

Have you see the new topic? TikiWiki migration (from Drupal). Maybe continue there to give a short review?

"I've seen sites where the Blog uses wordpress, the forum uses phpBBS, and the wiki uses Mediawiki."
Do you recall which sites? I would like to take a look..!

"As an admin, it would take a lot of work to make these three packages integrate seamlessly"
OK, for me even much more (inexperienced), would take years... But suppose a hughe (combined) developer team does that?

"... — that's what I like about Tiki."
Yes, but can I run the same thing like MediaWiki on that, like I have now?

"...(heck, if I can do it,..."
That is a very good page, I will remember!




posts: 3665 United States

> Have you see the new topic? TikiWiki migration (from Drupal). Maybe continue there to give a short review?
>
> "I've seen sites where the Blog uses wordpress, the forum uses phpBBS, and the wiki uses Mediawiki."
> Do you recall which sites? I would like to take a look..!

Sure. Here's one that you're probably familar with wink

Forum — By vBulletin
Blog — By Wordpress
Website — HTML

All of these are run by the same company — yet they all have a different look. IMHO, this is the problem that Tiki solves.

>
> "As an admin, it would take a lot of work to make these three packages integrate seamlessly"
> OK, for me even much more (inexperienced), would take years... But suppose a hughe (combined) developer team does that?
>
> "... — that's what I like about Tiki."
> Yes, but can I run the same thing like MediaWiki on that, like I have now?

Sure. If you want the MediaWiki look, use Gary's Tikipedia theme.

>
> "...(heck, if I can do it,..."
> That is a very good page, I will remember!
>
>
>
>
>

posts: 40

...
> > "I've seen sites where the Blog uses wordpress, the forum uses phpBBS, and the wiki uses Mediawiki."
> > Do you recall which sites? I would like to take a look..!
> Sure. Here's one that you're probably familar with wink
> Forum — By vBulletin
> Blog — By Wordpress
> Website — HTML
> All of these are run by the same company — yet they all have a different look. IMHO, this is the problem that Tiki solves.

OK! I more mentioned (my language error) where they tried to integrate it; trying to connect the databases so one indeed gets the best systems, with some poor integration...

> > "As an admin, it would take a lot of work to make these three packages integrate seamlessly"
> > OK, for me even much more (inexperienced), would take years... But suppose a hughe (combined) developer team does that?
> > "... — that's what I like about Tiki."
> > Yes, but can I run the same thing like MediaWiki on that, like I have now?
> Sure. If you want the MediaWiki look, use Gary's Tikipedia theme.
Thanks, I'll for sure keep that in mind; first install the 1.9.7. (where stays 1.9.8? see a German/'Japanese' guy already running it\...

Addition: I saw in my logs someone tried to go to my mediawiki page from here. I changed it to wikiresear.ch add-on domain. But have some rewrite problems. The name that works, is the complete old name or the new one with addition Main_Page for example:
http://cxs2.info/w/index.php?page=Main_Page or http://wikiresear.ch/Main_Page


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