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Features / Usability

Features / Usability


Regressions Piling Up

posts: 758 United States

Regressions are piling up each time I upgrade, it's getting old and frustrating. Feeling kind of done with it all, ya know what I mean?
Can't we just put a freeze on the upgrading and version cycle for a year and fix all the known issues first before moving on and carrying all these issues over the next version? I bet the general public would love a clean version over a scheduled upgrade or cycle deadline that "must" be met.
How about we all take a breather for a period of time, fix the regressions, fix known issues, re-group, announce to the public that versions are on hold for awhile, I am sure they will forgive, and be much happier when the average user installs the beautiful Tiki with their shared hosting Softaculous account and all works just bitchin and great. Happy users equals dedication and funding.
Just my morning ramblings. Have a good day ya'll

posts: 4656 Japan

Hi John,

I know what you mean. I think especially recently there was some maybe overzealous reworking of things that had some side effects. Maybe in the long run those changes will be for the better, but they caused some amount of collateral damage along the way.

There's going to be some major work before Tiki 19 comes out as we update from Bootstrap 3 to 4, but that's mostly on the interface level. Hopefully in parallel we can be checking functional details and weed out the regressions, etc. that have been cropping up.

I agree that getting new features is cold comfort if bugs are popping up in the existing things. I think that's something we do have to look at seriously.

-- Gary


posts: 8633 Israel

Hello John,

Ahem...
Working with an open source platform can be frustrating and working with Tiki can be super frustrating.

I restarted typing this answer 3 times already and finally will go for the short answer;
Things are moving !
We are pushing forward and changing some ways so we get a stronger community with more involved people.
New organisation and team are being prepared.
We are also trying to get more funding/donation (something we never really looked over) so we can be relieved of tasks that keep us busy instead of doing what we are good at (and what we are involved in Tiki for).

About putting a freeze that’s not easy as it seems.
The world outside is not freezing, bootstrap4, updating elasticSearch support, solving Facebook API (already outdated), New EU law about cookies, security, etc. We don’t master everything living in a closed world and we have to follow while we can.

The solution is really to have more active member pushing with us.
So, I encourage you to join us.
Not all of us are coders or graphic designer and anyone will be welcomed



posts: 758 United States
I just wrote a lengthy reply here, and I submitted it, and it does not show, I spent time to create a thoughtful reply, and upon submission, it is gone, ok.

posts: 758 United States

Bernard and Gary, thank you for the response.

Just to get this out of the way "So, I encourage you to join us."
I am sorry Bernard, I have mulled this over often and I just cannot commit to anything else at this time in life, I have my own online community and charity organization I volunteer countless hours too, and to make any further commitments would be committing suicide to my sanity.
But, I do try to be on the forums here as much as I can to help others, I do report bugs, and I try to welcome the new members as I can, that level of participation is what I am comfortable with at this time.

My frustration mainly lies in the fear of upgrading anymore. Sure I have backups, and if something goes horribly wrong I fall back on the backup, no problems, but working with Tiki is like a roller coaster, something wonderful is developed, but it seems sometimes with that wonderful development two items are no longer functioning.
I realize this is a free software, and it is hard to complain, or rock the boat, for something free, but hey, you guys took on this monumental task, freely of choice too!
I know with my own volunteer project that I created in 2010, since then I have volunteered thousands of hours to it, taking time away from kids, wife, and family, of course they come first but sometimes we do have conflicts, so I completely understand the stress or pressures you all are facing as well. One thing I promised myself when I created my online all volunteer project, is I would never throw it back in the face of anyone who critiqued the project, by stating "hey it's free, what are you complaining about?". To this day I treat every user of my "Open Source" project like they are a paid customer.

That being said, I have a Tiki installation that I have spilled countless hours into, I understand Tiki is a CMS, but one of it's primary functions is a Wiki. What I don't get, is that when a new version of Tiki is rolled out, a huge, main, big, primary feature is errored, and non functional, such as my latest bug report of the "Citation, or Footnote, or Reference" not functioning, mainly the "Sameas" referencing functions. In any wiki, the "citation or references" are the mainstay of that wiki.
What I am getting at, is something as big as that, I would have thought the developers would fix that immediately, but it is still broken.
H5P, a huge application and improvement to Tiki, one of the flagship additions to Tiki that make Tiki just more completely awesome, no longer functions, or half of it functions, it's been down for quite awhile now, and after it was pushed and promoted and we almost had a parade over the implementation of H5P, and a worthy addition it was, but it is barely functional now and no plans in the near future to fix it from the last answer I got.

I know this is free software, but is it really? Is it free if it causes stress, or worry if an upgrade is applied something else will break? Is it free if you have to spend countless hours tracking down causes and effects?

I know you guys are doing the best you can, but when a new user loads up their wiki on their shared hosting environment and runs into these issues, how frustrated they must be when things just don't work. A basic issue that still isn't fixed and has been reported in bugs, is the flagship theme for tiki "Fivealive", still can't see the admin links in that theme at the header area, that is probably going to be the first theme our new users use as it's the theme Tiki.org uses. But the theme will leave the new user frustrated and confused, and they'll probably just leave. For all the greatness Tiki is, there are a whole lot of bugs that remain, and never seem to get fixed, because of this schedule you all are adhering too, I get the need to keep up with the times, but it has it's consequences. Perhaps this is not the best venue to display my feelings on this, but hey, most of my inquiries seem to go unanswered elsewhere so here we are.
I mixed feelings about my Tiki, do I cut my loses, or do I keep piling on more countless hours into trouble shooting my tiki instead of building it.

Those are my feelings guys, sorry if they ruffle feathers.


posts: 8633 Israel

Hello John,

I understand your frustration (felt alike).
I appreciate your honesty it helped me to re-think and understand why I’m here. :-)

One thing I really need to say is that you don’t (shouldn’t) use Tiki to suffer but because Tiki is better. :-)
Tiki is good webapp (I don’t use the Wiki side that much), doing many things that other don’t.
I’m not stubborn and want to use Tiki, I use it because, Wordpress, Joomla, Drupal, Magento or others don’t do what Tiki does.

If a downside to having so many features and options packed "safely" in one box is that they will be waves when upgrading from a version to a version then I’m ok with it. Of course I don’t like it and would have love a 100% bullet proof software like...
Ahem, who does a 100% working stuff ? Microsoft, Apple, Intel, Google ? Sorry for going to the funny side with this very short list. ;)

Unlike those big guys, it may took us more time ( or may be not) and we won't offer a protection or care plan ($$$) or have a nice diverting (and upsetting) ways to keep you from reaching someone for help.
Here you got Bernard and Gary and in another thread Luci and Rick or Torsten.. and in another other guys. (all random instant and sorry I didn’t mentioned many others). But hey, you can complain !
And most of the time, someone will answer.

Smileys and jokes appart, in my opinion;
For every software greatness there is many bugs waiting to be discovered.
It hurts when a bug is affecting your Tiki (other Tiki may run properly as they are not configured as your).

With so many options and possible configurations it is insane to think it is possible to catch them all in one run.
That’s why it is important to participate and run the last version (in real life case) to test and report properly issues when the release cycle is initiate so we can get more problems fixed.

Users (really not talking to you, but in general) that don’t run THEIR OWN real life test and expect to upgrade comfortably as soon as the x.1 version is released can be only disappointed. Sadly they may be also the first to say that this Tiki version is crippled with bugs (as it happened the early weeks of 12.x and 15.x).
It is true that on the other side, you may test and report properly and don’t see a solution coming fast. Fixes are made by devs using their "free time" for the community on higher priorities or, they are paid by other users hiring them to fixe specific things.

Things may take time to be fixed in the software industries as I demonstrate.
Tiki is no different than any other player big or little on this (and almost different in all the rest).

As in or for any project, things may and should be improved !
As I posted previously, things are moving, be part of it. :-)


posts: 758 United States

Thanks Bernard for your feedback, appreciate it much.

We should also rethink this statement that is placed throughout tiki.org.

::With the Tiki
all-in-one model
, you don't have to worry about incompatible plug-ins, modules or add-ons.
::

The reality is, plugins do become incompatible through the versions.


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